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This conversation is civil compared to my "Latest Z400 photos" post which morphed into an ecu battle and photographic critique. Thanks for all the fact information. On a non technical note, when I removed my stock pipe and Coffman the exhaust color was black and sooty. I always thought lean would be a light grey or tan. With the Musarri full system the exhaust color is still blackish. If the fuel mixture was to lean out, wouldn't the color be lighter?
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
MWR race air filter and exhaust, Running FTECU. It is a race bike, sits at 4 bars unless ambient is over 105F and then it'll go to 5 at race pace. Usually measures around 104Db on the meter.
Yes! Very focused. :)

Still remarkable that you got a 14% power increase with just the exhaust, filter, and FTECU tune.

Jim G
 
This conversation is civil compared to my "Latest Z400 photos" post which morphed into an ecu battle and photographic critique. Thanks for all the fact information. On a non technical note, when I removed my stock pipe and Coffman the exhaust color was black and sooty. I always thought lean would be a light grey or tan. With the Musarri full system the exhaust color is still blackish. If the fuel mixture was to lean out, wouldn't the color be lighter?
Not always. Tail pipe color and your temp gauge are not very good indicators of fuel mixture. :)

12.8:1 here.
19680
 
Yes! Very focused. :)

Still remarkable that you got a 14% power increase with just the exhaust, filter, and FTECU tune.

Jim G
I'm wondering if the conditions between the first run (stock) and the next one (with upgrades) were different. I know dynos vary but 41 hp sounds very low for a bone stock bike. Most seem to be around 43-45 depending on the dyno. 47-48 sounds very reasonable for his upgrades, but the stock readout is less than expected, so I'm wondering if there was some other factors present during the first run that caused the dyno to read lower numbers.
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
I'm wondering if the conditions between the first run (stock) and the next one (with upgrades) were different. I know dynos vary but 41 hp sounds very low for a bone stock bike. Most seem to be around 43-45 depending on the dyno. 47-48 sounds very reasonable for his upgrades, but the stock readout is less than expected, so I'm wondering if there was some other factors present during the first run that caused the dyno to read lower numbers.
I MIGHT have figured it out. IF the "before" dyno run was done before the tune but AFTER the new exhaust hardware had been installed, I can understand the big gain. The "before"run would then be running the new hardware but the OEM tune - a bad combination that might indeed drop the OEM power by 2 or 3 rwhp. This would also explain why the "before" AFR was so bad (18): a really freeflowing (LOUD!!) exhaust that needs more fuel to match the higher airflow, but the OEM tune could not deliver that amount of fuel. Hence the crappy "before" power.

Jim G
 
I MIGHT have figured it out. IF the "before" dyno run was done before the tune but AFTER the new exhaust hardware had been installed, I can understand the big gain. The "before"run would then be running the new hardware but the OEM tune - a bad combination that might indeed drop the OEM power by 2 or 3 rwhp. This would also explain why the "before" AFR was so bad (18): a really freeflowing (LOUD!!) exhaust that needs more fuel to match the higher airflow, but the OEM tune could not deliver that amount of fuel. Hence the crappy "before" power.

Jim G
That's exactly it. All mods were installed and then the first run was on the OEM tune.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
The interesting thing I'm seeing when I look at all the available data here and elsewhere is that simply replacing the ultra restrictive OEM exhaust system with any decent quality full exhaust system seems to uncork the 400 particularly well and easily, and its OEM tune seems remarkably able to handle the uncorked airflow without going super lean.

A man who spent 19 years working at Kawasaki in a variety of roles (sales, parts desk, service writer, tech, and shows) told me recently that the OEMs have come a long way in the last few years in the capabilities of their ECUs, and I guess the 400 is evidence of that. Getting a custom tune, or even a mail order tune from a reputable tuner is still certainly superior, but when I see 5 to 7% more power being added by simply installing a full exhaust on an otherwise stock bike, without triggering big ECU tune issues, I am impressed.

Jim G
 
If you maintain the stock O2 system it will pretty much try to tune the bike to the same af ratio no matter what exhaust you run. That’s within its operating range which is smaller throttle openings and below 5-6k revs. This is the range where all the environmental regs apply. Above that the manufactures are free to set the fueling however they want which is normally much richer than down low and are tuned for good power.

Airbox changes have a much larger effect on fueling than exhausts normally do. Start making big changes there and you had better have a good tuners help. And I don’t mean just changing to a K&N filter which usually does nothing. I mean when you start cutting holes, changing stacks, etc.
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
If you maintain the stock O2 system it will pretty much try to tune the bike to the same af ratio no matter what exhaust you run. That’s within its operating range which is smaller throttle openings and below 5-6k revs. This is the range where all the environmental regs apply. Above that the manufactures are free to set the fueling however they want which is normally much richer than down low and are tuned for good power.

Airbox changes have a much larger effect on fueling than exhausts normally do. Start making big changes there and you had better have a good tuners help. And I don’t mean just changing to a K&N filter which usually does nothing. I mean when you start cutting holes, changing stacks, etc.
Yes, I agree about the effect that intake mods can have. I see that in the effects of the velocity stack and drilled airbox kits that Jesse Norton sells. They are very effective. Just look at his dyno charts which show that.

But I knew that a couple of years back, when I was doing my Yamaha R3 project. Graves sold me a pre-release kit that included a modified airbox & stacks and a new ECU tune and new exhaust to match, and it had a huge effect on the R3s power. In fact, the effect was large enough that many on the R3 forum disputed my report on it, saying that it was unlikely that the kit could produce results that good. However, the subsequent applications of the same basic techniques by Jesse Norton and others to the Ninja 400 have shown that the Graves claims were legitimate.

The Ninja / Z 400 platform is proving to be a much more satisfying platform for me to do mods on than the R3 was. The R3 was simply just a bit too small in displacement, whereas the 400 is just large enough, and still light enough, to be able to hit really satisfying acceleration while still getting the smallest insurance premium demanded by our Government-run, monopolized insurance here in British Columbia, Canada. :)

Any time an "entry-level", relatively inexpensive motorcycle can easily be modded to out-accelerate some very quick performance cars, that's a winning product.

Jim G
 
Yes, I agree about the effect that intake mods can have. I see that in the effects of the velocity stack and drilled airbox kits that Jesse Norton sells. They are very effective. Just look at his dyno charts which show that.

But I knew that a couple of years back, when I was doing my Yamaha R3 project. Graves sold me a pre-release kit that included a modified airbox & stacks and a new ECU tune and new exhaust to match, and it had a huge effect on the R3s power. In fact, the effect was large enough that many on the R3 forum disputed my report on it, saying that it was unlikely that the kit could produce results that good. However, the subsequent applications of the same basic techniques by Jesse Norton and others to the Ninja 400 have shown that the Graves claims were legitimate.

The Ninja / Z 400 platform is proving to be a much more satisfying platform for me to do mods on than the R3 was. The R3 was simply just a bit too small in displacement, whereas the 400 is just large enough, and still light enough, to be able to hit really satisfying acceleration while still getting the smallest insurance premium demanded by our Government-run, monopolized insurance here in British Columbia, Canada. :)

Any time an "entry-level", relatively inexpensive motorcycle can easily be modded to out-accelerate some very quick performance cars, that's a winning product.

Jim G

So to summarize this conversation; running a full akarapovic system without a tune does not necessarily create an unsafe operating condition under normal street riding circumstances (sub 9k revs) It's just not optimal. infact it will help your bike run cooler.
The question I have is could the full akrak system without a tune make the bike run down on power? like L337sponge had happen with his system pre tune.
Also, would running a DNA filter with an akrapovic system warrant a tune ? Or is that not necessary as it's not a true airbox mod (like stacks and cutting)
I guess another factor is elevation. I'm at 5600ft and most of my riding is above 5k ft. So as I understand it I should be running richer than sea level folks correct?
Wow I have a lot to learn. These forums have been a very valuable source of information for me . I appreciate the discussion so far . Thanks for the knowledge 👍🤘
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
A DNA filter cannot change airflow enough to require a retune. The airbox mod and velocity stacks will.

No QUALITY full exhaust will lean out the engine enough to hurt it. The cheap exhausts that have not been properly engineered and are sold at a low price to inexperienced and cash-poor young guys can hurt the engine.

Jim G
 
I guess another factor is elevation. I'm at 5600ft and most of my riding is above 5k ft. So as I understand it I should be running richer than sea level folks correct?
Not necessarily. Fuel injection systems will self correct for elevation changes, up to a point. I’m not sure about Kawasaki’s system but I seem to remember Ducati’s would correct up to around 6-10k feet. After that it just keeps getting richer.
 
A DNA filter cannot change airflow enough to require a retune. The airbox mod and velocity stacks will.

No QUALITY full exhaust will lean out the engine enough to hurt it. The cheap exhausts that have not been properly engineered and are sold at a low price to inexperienced and cash-poor young guys can hurt the engine.

Jim G

Right on Jim. Thanks for the reply. Iv got an akara slip on now and I'm gonna pull the trigger on the headers. Iv been worried about AFR and damaging my engine bc i read the same dyno charts you've highlighted in this thread and interpreted "bad" as damaging. I'm a young guy and I'm sure as **** not cash rich but I like to spend my money as wisely as I can. I read alot of these posts about norton products and they sounds like someone selling me a product more than an honest review from a customer. Maybe I'm just a little too skeptical, but I know forums have a tendency to be co opted by sales teams that can flood thread topics as a way of marketing. Not hatin or saying I think norton is a shady company I just have no experience here and I know how niche the racing market is. The mountains have become my daily playground after work and I don't think I'd be willing to pull my ecu and sit for a week until the winter hits. Would you recommend norton flash tune for the price or would you go with a fuel controller and a professional dyno tune? A couple shops have quoted me 500-650 for a tune in the Denver area and the fuel controllers aren't cheap either. I'm not convinced this is cost effective for the preformance gains . I'd like to hear your opinion
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
. . .

Not hatin or saying I think norton is a shady company I just have no experience here and I know how niche the racing market is. The mountains have become my daily playground after work and I don't think I'd be willing to pull my ecu and sit for a week until the winter hits. Would you recommend norton flash tune for the price or would you go with a fuel controller and a professional dyno tune? A couple shops have quoted me 500-650 for a tune in the Denver area and the fuel controllers aren't cheap either. I'm not convinced this is cost effective for the preformance gains . I'd like to hear your opinion
I believe Jesse Norton's products are well developed and good quality, and Jesse supplies more information on the specifics of his products than most other suppliers.. IF I lived in The U.S., I would probably have bought his Ninja/Z 400 reflash by now. Same with the Graves products, although the Graves products have gotten much more expensive laterly than they were a couple years ago.

I don't like the Power Commander or Bazzaz approach to tuning. First I don't like the idea of introducing extra electrical connections, and extra devices, especially in a motorcycle environment. Secondly, I don't think modifying an OEM fueling signal after it is generated and before it gets to the injectors is as good as simply correcting the fueling signal right at the ECU source.

I consider a custom dyno tune to be superior to a "canned" reflash, and thus worth more than a reflash, BUT ONLY IF DONE BY A TUNER WHO IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SPECIFIC MOTORCYCLE MODEL AND THE USER'S USAGE OF THE MOTORCYCLE. A custom dyno tune done by a tuner not familiar with the individual model's characteristics (e.g. the Ninja/Z 400's particularly restrictive OEM exhaust and its tendency to run hotter than typical) is not going to be as good as a reflash designed by a tuner who is very familiar with the model, and even more so when that tuner has personally raced that model under varying conditions and has tried various exhausts (like Jesse Norton has).

I got a truly GREAT custom dyno tune by Mike Lozano of Lozano Brothers Racing because Mike knew Harley models and engines really well (although their claim to fame was building superb racing engines for Porsche), and knew how HD had compromised severely to inexpensively enable their big bore air cooled engines to pass emissions and noise testing while satisfying their traditionalist air-cooled-only customers. He knew the inherent weakness created by the valve timing in my HD Stage 4 power kit, and he knew the D&D Exhaust I had on it. He got a LOT of power and great throttle response out of my bike's engine. When I traded the bike in to an experienced dealer, he remarked that "this one certainly has balls".

The local HD shop on the other hand had 2 staff tuners who simply followed the HD training directions and did not achieve the same kind of results. Ti them, it was just a job. To Mike Lozano, it was a calling, and he valued his personal reputation.

Jim G
 
I believe Jesse Norton's products are well developed and good quality, and Jesse supplies more information on the specifics of his products than most other suppliers.. IF I lived in The U.S., I would probably have bought his Ninja/Z 400 reflash by now. Same with the Graves products, although the Graves products have gotten much more expensive laterly than they were a couple years ago.

I don't like the Power Commander or Bazzaz approach to tuning. First I don't like the idea of introducing extra electrical connections, and extra devices, especially in a motorcycle environment. Secondly, I don't think modifying an OEM fueling signal after it is generated and before it gets to the injectors is as good as simply correcting the fueling signal right at the ECU source.

I consider a custom dyno tune to be superior to a "canned" reflash, and thus worth more than a reflash, BUT ONLY IF DONE BY A TUNER WHO IS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SPECIFIC MOTORCYCLE MODEL AND THE USER'S USAGE OF THE MOTORCYCLE. A custom dyno tune done by a tuner not familiar with the individual model's characteristics (e.g. the Ninja/Z 400's particularly restrictive OEM exhaust and its tendency to run hotter than typical) is not going to be as good as a reflash designed by a tuner who is very familiar with the model, and even more so when that tuner has personally raced that model under varying conditions and has tried various exhausts (like Jesse Norton has).

I got a truly GREAT custom dyno tune by Mike Lozano of Lozano Brothers Racing because Mike knew Harley models and engines really well (although their claim to fame was building superb racing engines for Porsche), and knew how HD had compromised severely to inexpensively enable their big bore air cooled engines to pass emissions and noise testing while satisfying their traditionalist air-cooled-only customers. He knew the inherent weakness created by the valve timing in my HD Stage 4 power kit, and he knew the D&D Exhaust I had on it. He got a LOT of power and great throttle response out of my bike's engine. When I traded the bike in to an experienced dealer, he remarked that "this one certainly has balls".

The local HD shop on the other hand had 2 staff tuners who simply followed the HD training directions and did not achieve the same kind of results. Ti them, it was just a job. To Mike Lozano, it was a calling, and he valued his personal reputation.

Jim G

Great info !! The 2 dyno shops closest to me (boulder, Co) that iv talked to specalize in ducatis and R1's . I'm as green as can be when it comes to tuning and I was under the impression a dyno tune was a pretty straight forward process with the proper equipment and software. Understanding now that no tune is created equal, I do believe I'll get the norton tune by the end of the year. I don't think I'll be going with the velocity stacks. I'm a street ridin guy and I really don't get above 10k often. These bikes sure are fun to flick around the canyons and im excited to see how much I can get out of this platform. Thanks again for the info . Forums and YouTube have been invaluable sources of information on my journey as a motor enthusiasts through both cars and motorcycles. Props to guys like you, kiwirider and atomicmonkey that are willing to share info with young guys like myself in this community 👏 👍
 
I know this is an old thread, but from reading the comments here. I’m planning on doing a full akrapovic installation but don’t really want to a tune until I can test how it is without it. so if I’m correct we don’t need a tune with the full akra setup?
 
I know this is an old thread, but from reading the comments here. I’m planning on doing a full akrapovic installation but don’t really want to a tune until I can test how it is without it. so if I’m correct we don’t need a tune with the full akra setup?
Yes you can run a full exhaust without a tune but it is not recommended by the subject matter experts because lean AFR means hotter combustion which is not good for the engine internals. You may also lose power because more air without more fuel is pointless and counter productive. This is well documented by experts who actually dyno tune and race motorcycles.

I would personally not recommend it but it's your money so do whatever you want. While not exactly apples to apples because this video is an inline 4 Superbike with a Servo, it does give some insight into what can happen when you install an exhaust without flashing the ECU. In this case the engine runs like sheet.

 
Yes you can run a full exhaust without a tune but it is not recommended by the subject matter experts because lean AFR means hotter combustion which is not good for the engine internals. You may also lose power because more air without more fuel is pointless and counter productive. This is well documented by experts who actually dyno tune and race motorcycles.

I would personally not recommend it but it's your money so do whatever you want. While not exactly apples to apples because this video is an inline 4 Superbike with a Servo, it does give some insight into what can happen when you install an exhaust without flashing the ECU. In this case the engine runs like sheet.

Yeah I’ve spoke to van from sportbiketrackgear, he just recommended me to first try it out an see for myself. An that he only recommended a tune if I have plan to do tracks in the future. He also ran a few of his old ninja with full setup an said he never had any issues. so will see, I mean I’m sure In the future im going to end up getting a tune from Norton.
 
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