Very good questions.

With equal tires on a Ninja 400/500 and an /R1, could one match the speed of the R1 in corner, given equally skilled riders? I have not ridden an R1, but my guess is that the much more competent suspension on an R1 or other high end sportbike would give the advantage to the R1, GSXR, or whatever IF the riders were both very skilled. For beginners, I think the 400/500 could match the rider's speed on the sportier bike. Once the skill level reaches a certain level, maybe upper intermediate, I'd think you'd need upgraded suspension on the N400/N500 to continue to match an R1 in corner speed.

With regard to Pilot power 2CT tires, I would think 2 laps would get you up to operating temps.

I would like to say that in my opinion striving for maximum corner speed as a novice at one's first track days is probably not advisable. A better approach would be to work on braking points and how to safely get in and out of corners without trying to risk reaching maximum corner speed. I listen to this short instructional video almost every time I am headed to a track, whether for a track day or race. Maybe you and your son might find it as useful as I have:

Life At Lean - 5 mistakes that cost easy speed on track

Best of success to you both!

 

Thank you, great info. And yes, the cornering speed question is just for info’s sake, we won’t be hitting even the Ninja 500’s limit on 2ct’s anytime soon, but we’re looking for the warm fuzzies that come from hearing something like “on a stock Ninja 500 wearing 2ct’s? you can lean the daylights out of it and you won’t overtax that tire.” Its just knowing we COULD maybe match an R1 in a corner on a smooth track (the smooth track removing some of the better suspension’s advantage). I’m guessing if our skill is sufficient, the stock peg feelers will be the limit for us. I felt surprisingly confident on that fully stock Ninja 400, so I think we just want to know we can push pretty hard on our Ninja 500 with new 2ct’s.

And would those 2ct’s perform as well on a 65° sunny day as on a 90° sunny day? Or would those high temps hurt a 2ct’s performance?

 

Removed.

 

It kinda depends on the turn - A long wide open turn the larger bike will be able to carry more speed because of the overall power. However, for normal tighter turns, chicanes, etc. the smaller bike will carry more speed every time (assuming equally skilled riders and proper setup on each bike). The larger size and weight of the larger bike is a limiting factor in turns.

Don’t worry about the tires - On a small bike like the Ninja 400 you will not overheat the tires. Additionally, all quality tires have plenty of grip for riders in novice and intermediate groups (sometimes advanced groups).

DOT tires have a wider temperature range than slicks so cooler temps are not as big of an issue - Sometimes in cooler temps I run Q5 rather than slicks. Heat can be an issue, but the track will make a difference - At some point when it gets too hot a track will get a little slick, but tracks are different so it is difficult to say exactly what temperature grip is reduced.

 

That was one of my big questions, would much higher temps on a track day (say 85°+ and sunny) actually degrade performance of good street/track tires like 2ct’s, S22’s, Q5’s, etc.

And would those tires also not grip so well on, let’s say a cloudy day with temperatures at 65°?

 

That was one of my big questions, would much higher temps on a track day (say 85°+ and sunny) actually degrade performance of good street/track tires like 2ct’s, S22’s, Q5’s, etc.

And would those tires also not grip so well on, let’s say a cloudy day with temperatures at 65°?

In a novice group you will not have any issues with the tires

 

If talking about steady throttle coasting mid corner, (Not ideal when racing. You're either trail braking to the apex, or throttling out from the apex. Brakes or throttle.)
and with both riders of the same weight hanging off the inside of the bike identically, the lighter bike will corner faster unless it has a silly long wheelbase or something.

If both the Ninja 400 and R1 enter any corner at the same speed, the lighter Ninja 400 will be able to out-brake the R1 and complete the first part of the corner faster, trail braking faster to the apex. On faster corners, the R1 will be faster on corner exit due to more power. Racing lines will be different of course, the more powerful bikes want to spend less time at lean, stand the bike up faster so they can get more power down as soon as possible.

 

Smaller bike theoretically should have faster peak corner speed.
You can drag the stock pegs without feelers with 2CTs on a N400 once they are warm.
Same for hypersport tires like the S22 or Q5. If you don't have rear sets, run a sport tire.


Pilot power 2CTs on my 4RR at the track.
Basically, I short shift for a lap to get heat in them.
Not pushing like I would on slicks.

 

@Sampson572 , oh man, I can write a book on this topic!!!! The Michelin 2CT’s are very capable tires , there is a reason Michelin still makes them after 15 years. Don’t remember their exact release date but I have used them up until mid pack intermediate group. At novice pace no need too worry about hot or cold temps on the 2CT’s. The 400 and 500 is much easier too ride than an R1. Less weight and power. You will learn much more on a 400/500, you are not relying on power . The tires will last much longer on a little bike!

 

OK thanks everyone, that is great info. Yes I’m looking forward to it, just got to get time in the schedule to bring my new N500 to a track day.

it will have brand new 2CT’s on it for its first track day, so it’s good to know once I get them warmed up on the first lap then I can let ‘er rip! I have done track days on bikes like FZ1, CBR1000RR, SV1000S, even a ZX14R (the blue whale). All were fun, but **** that stock ninja 400 was an absolute blast. I brought it to a track day last year just to see what it would be like, and even with the fully stock brakes and suspension, it felt great. I’m looking forward to seeing what the first limiting factor on that bike will be.

 

Right many have said it, and probably nothing I can share any different.
Any name brand sportier DOT tires will do unless you are at Advanced group Rocco Landers pace. The nice thing about a smaller bike is learning how much more crucial corner speed is, braking markers, technique, body position, apexs and right and wrong lines.
The big bikes, which I have rode big, small, 2 stroke, 4 stroke, etc. over the years are enablers for bad habits and technique starting out. I am not the fastest rider and never was, and never will be, but I just love riding.
For most, I call the big bikes point and shoot. For most riders, fast on the straights, slow and smooth in the corners and then once you get onto more of the tire, throttle out........so point and shoot, then back hard on the brakes or more trail braking, and repeat. You can make up speed that is lost in the corners on the bigger bikes.
Small bikes not so much.

Smaller bikes some things are easier to do and more forgiving while others are total opposite. This is why braking and corner speed is so crucial, carrying as much as you safely can to still have the fastest line through the corners.
Small mistakes can be a huge impact to the lap times and speeds. You can get on the throttle earlier, but its because there is less power so that much more its crucial to carry as much speed as you can into the corners and make small corrections or trail braking to make sure you are not too slow for the corner since you cannot pick up that speed easily. For this reason I think if you can ride a small bike fast and get good at it, you can ride a big bike faster than if you were only riding bigs.

Of course the trade off is, for some, transition to big bikes applying the same technique of riding the small bikes, very, very fast can be hard to adjust.

But yes, if I(Not talking Moto GP rider, or someone like B Paasch) was on a R1 my max speed into the corners I could easily match that on a small bike and even faster to be honest, but thats just apply the same riding skill and technique to both bikes, meaning I am limited in my abilities to ride the R1 at its full potential.......the 400 or a 300 as well, but you get my point 😁

The 500 will do fine on those tires, warmer temps to an extent can be better. Too hot though and they get greasy or fade faster, but I could never outride those tires.

 

Awesome info, thanks everyone. Love to get the insight to try out on this lil’ N500. 👍

 

Yep no problem. All I can say is do not overthink it right out of the pit, just go out there and have a blast, even with the suspension as its weakness, it will still be a riot 😁

 

Great info.
And also, I just watched an interesting YouTube video on MotoGP/2/3, and I wonder if anyone has this info:

Are Moto2 bikes and Moto3 bikes actually going around the corners at the same speed as the MotoGP bikes? Or possibly even faster? They certainly look like they are absolutely hauling @$$ around the corners.

 

OK, questions for those of you that do lots of track days/race, etc. (my kid is building his experience riding and is throwing all sorts of questions at me that I can’t answer

One tip: follow and watch your kid!

Kid will learn very quickly and may not even consciously know what they're doing. YOU may be able to see what they're doing and copy. Basically worry less (actually zero) about equipment and focus more on technique to get faster to limits of your equipment. May take decade using what you have now to get to limit.

What I always ask myself is, "What can Rossi do on my bike?" Hard to tell exactly how much of his 20-sec lead on me at Laguna is due to skill or equipment since we rode such different bikes with different tyres. However, I do have experience following kid named Rocco around tracks when he came through our AFM club (I sponsor him in MotoAm now). With similar Ninja, he was 10-15s faster than me at all tracks. He would win all small-displacement classes outright (beat Dave Moss)! His laptimes would place him in top-5 of all other classes like unlimited Formulae Pacific or Superbike Open classes (bikes with 400% more power!!!). So it's not equipment in any way that's making him fast.

Having ridden stock GPR-300 all way to Dunlop/Pirelli race slicks, I can tell you there's not huge performance gap with tyres, maybe 5-6s/lap max. Basically if Rossi or Rocco are on stock GPR-300 tyres with same bike, they would beat me by 10-15s/lap at any track. Lap me in 12-laps basically. If they had slicks, they'd lap me within 6-laps. 🤣

So focus on techniques that'll make you faster. Grab coaches available at trackdays to help you, extremely awesome resource to speed up learning. Consistency is key. Doing right thing over and over again, each and every lap, with only eeny tiny increases. These tips are for beginners and not necessarily what more advanced riders or racers would spend time doing.

- braking, this sets up cornering and speed down next straight. First, practice braking at same marker harder and harder each lap. Just tiny, tiny bit more +1% harder braking at a time while scooting your butt back. You'll find suddenly you've got tonne of space before corner and end up overbraking with lots of coasting afterwards. Next move your braking marker closer to corner, 5m at time. Leave yourself enough time and room for turn-in. You'll find yourself passing up lots of big bikes here.

That's my main issue with big bikes is they cannot brake as hard as me (physics: traction vs. weight). I've had so, so many near-crashes (and one crash), where litrebike zooms by me on straight heading into braking zone. Then they cut in front of me and slam on brakes 100m before my marker! 🤬 Most of time, I just swerve and pass inside of them and brake at my normal marker. Be sure to leave them room on outside coming out of corner. Two bad moves doesn't make right.

- cornering was your original question. Not sure how it relates to larger bikes, completely ignore them. To optimize cornering speed, you'll want to work on 2 things. First is line-selection. Small bikes try to maintain as much speed through corners as possible with mirror-image entry & exit and middle-apex. Learn this fastest line 1st and go from 1" just inside white-line at start (move closer between braking let-up and turn-in), to 1" outside white-line on kerbs at apex, then out to 1" just inside of white-line on exit. Practice hitting those points using single turn-in input with no corrections.

As you're getting fastest line learned, you can gradually increase speed at turn-in. Just 0.25mph at a time. With such slow increases, when you go over traction limits of tyres, bike will have gentle slide that's easy to correct by reducing lean just tiny bit by turning into corner. It'll be years before you get to that point with incremental improvements. Don't worry about going faster, focus on going on best line. Always stay within comfort zone, never have "Oh Sh|t" moments by pushing speeds too fast. It'll mess you up mentally and set back your training lots.

Here's guy from my race-group on Ninja 400, about 5-sec slower than Rocco at Thunderhill. He's got good lines. See how often he's right on white line at turn-in and over kerb at apex. If exit berm is flat, you can over it to get more speed from apex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P3JYyqpkMY

- acclerating/corner-exit lines are vastly different between small vs. big bikes. So question doesn't really answer anything. Small bikes tend to try and preserve as much speed as possible through entire corner (centre apex). Big bikes will sacrifice some cornering speed for sooner faster drive out (late apex). This can be annoying if I'm catching big bike under braking, but can't quite pass. Then I'll be stuck behind it in corner going slower than my max-speed, then it takes off down straightaway, having slowed me down by 1/2-sec in that corner. 😡🤣


In summary, ignore equipment and don't waste time or money on it. Save as much as you can to do as many trackdays and private-coaching sessions as possible. That will make you fast quicker than same amount spent on equipment. Here's my 1st season with AFM while back. I bought 428 chain and sprocket set at beginning of season. Got 2 free sets of spec tyres from MotoAm when they visited Sears Point Sonoma. 4 gallons of full-synth oil & filtres, 250-gal pump petrol and that's it! About $1000 on equipment and $15000 on trackdays.
2017 TrackRaceDays.xlxs

 

Having ridden stock GPR-300 all way to Dunlop/Pirelli race slicks, I can tell you there's not huge performance gap with tyres, maybe 5-6s/lap max. Basically if Rossi or Rocco are on stock GPR-300 tyres with same bike, they would beat me by 10-15s/lap at any track. Lap me in 12-laps basically. If they had slicks, they'd lap me within 6-laps. 🤣

Eh? There's a vast performance difference between gpr300 and pirelli super corsas. There's no better upgrade than tyres. Even for slow pokes. Because eventually the slow poke will get a squirm from low end tyres and set their development back to square 1. Gpr300s start squirming before getting to half the performance limit of the super corsas. The supercorsas are practically unstickable by comparison.

Still, I wouldn't recommend supercorsas for a slowpoke. Better to get something s23 grade.

 

Wow, great info, thank you! I am absolutely planning on doing what you mention, starting slow and building up, looking for technique, getting coached, etc.
But I also want to have a bike that is at least basically set up for going faster. Not horsepower, but tires first, then suspension/brakes IF necessary. I got great tires on my ninja 500 now, now I just have to schedule a track day around work…

 

Some great comments from others in this thread. Here's some more info: YES, a 400 can be as fast, if not faster, than an R1 in the corner. Riding a small bike will teach you skills that most others don't have because they have chosen to ride a big powerful bike. Those bikes often make new riders lazy because if they make a mistake that slows them down...they can make up for it with horsepower.

Don't worry about the big bikes. They will pass you in the straights...and you'll end up passing them in the corner.

Tires: The stock tires are fine for a track day. The most important thing is the tire pressure...which is affected by the ambient temp outside and more importantly, how hard you are pushing them. A racing slick is designed to be pushed hard to get it up to temp, so a slower rider on slicks is actually not a good idea if they aren't up to pace to keep the tires heated. Yes, there are more grippier tires our there, but your pace needs to be to the point that you actually need them. Search the web (or ask guys who have run those tires at the track) for tire pressure recommendations.

Buy Keith Codes "A Twist of the Wrist" book vol 1 for yourself and kid.

Have fun and try not to be the fastest guy out there. Learn technique, ask other guys questions etc...and the speed will come to you both. Cheers! -jc