Ninja 400 Riders Forum banner

Aftermarket brake calipers

42K views 97 replies 19 participants last post by  Cirodam 
#1 ·
Has anyone put the Brembo 4 piston calliper on the 400 yet..?

Though I am in the early part of running in, Im super disappointed with the front brake feel, and performance at the moment, I see Spears racing list the Brembo, then I guess better pads, lines, and m/cylinder mite be needed...

Not helped by the recent purchase of a new Bmw S1000r, which has the best, most instantaneous brakes an feel Ive ever had the pleasure of...
 
#2 ·
Thanks Kiwi for moving this to the correct place :)

Looking on Spears racing, the Brembo calliper and mounting adapter plate are listed at $349 USD.
I recall seeing on Tyga site also, not sure there price, then I guess one needs Braded race brake lines, and Sintered HH pads to go with it, though it may come with Brembo pads...
I have had various bikes over the years with these callipers on them, though all been twin disc front ends, Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Aprilia, come to mind, and I don't recall thoughts of lacing in braking power, Guess there is also the option of a second hand one off a bike wreckers yard, Tyga list a mounting adaptor plate on its own...

So Im interested to hear if anyone has fitted one of these yet, to a 400, or the 300, or another brand... :)
 
#4 ·
So I've just installed the brembo caliper using the tyga adapter...
What an absolute PITA that was to get every thing all sorted 4 trips to a engineering shop to get the right bolts becouse the ones included with the tyga mount were all the wrong thread... that and I can confirm the stock bango bolt is a different thread to the brembo.
Having concerns about the mount as the brembo is wearing lower down on the rotor by about 10mm maybe more
 
#7 ·
Good to hear someone is trying to do some improvement on this, If I recall correctly, the calliper has 10mm fine threads in the mounting bolt holes, for which I have 2 sets of Titanium bolts for, Is it what you found Ginger.?

Are you on traded lines./ and which pads.?

The position 10mm lower around the disc will have no effect in my mind, other than line length.
Good luck with sorting, keep us posted please.
 
#5 ·
Forgot to mention the brake feel is roughly the same still very vague but the bike does seem to pull up a little better only went on a short trip after installing it so I'll give it a chance to bed in but I'm thinking I'm going to upgrade the master cylinder and lines to get the brake feel I want
 
#9 ·
Forgot to mention the brake feel is roughly the same still very vague but the bike does seem to pull up a little better only went on a short trip after installing it so I'll give it a chance to bed in but I'm thinking I'm going to upgrade the master cylinder and lines to get the brake feel I want
That's how I felt after doing the braided line and sintered pad upgrade. From what I've read about brake upgrades it appears to be a combination of upgraded parts that are compatible with each other which gives the best result rather than just one part making a huge difference. Master cylinder/caliper/lines/pads and possibly even a rotor upgrade.
It's all $$ though and I'm not racing the thing so will probably settle for what I have mean time.
 
#6 ·
The Brembo caliper needs to have 40mm spread on the mount bolts if looking eBay etc... SVRacing should be coming out with a caliper mount adapter for the Tokico & Nissin calipers similar to the N3 and N2.5. I plan on purchasing a Frando 15mm radial MC. I have read good reviews and le$$ then half price then a Brembo/Accossato radial MC. I have Vesrah RJL pads on my track GSX-R 750 and really like them so will go that route with my Tokico caliper.
 
#14 ·
If there is a lip, and the new pads go further in over the lip, thats going to hold the pads off the bulk/main part of the disc, meaning a very small contact area, easiest fix would be to take the pads out, and file a bit off where the overlap is, not a perfect solution, but cheeper than a new disc.
If you go the route of a new disc, Id be looking at aftermarket options, maybe even a brembo, or other good quality name brand...
 
#16 ·
#17 ·
That’s cheap! I’ve got a Brembo caliper & bracket I bought from Spears that I haven’t had a a chance to install yet - I wish it would have been offered in the titanium color; OTOH, the gold one I’ve got matches my blingy gold chain and adds balance lol.
 
#18 ·
Is there a difference with the tyga bracket vs the Spears? Wanderer posted the tyga bracket had about a 10mm offset. What gives? Is the Spears bracket more centered?
 
#19 ·
Has anybody come to the conclusion on whether the weak OEM braking is due to the OEM caliper or the OEM MC? I have a radial MC with braided lines on the OEM caliper and it felt pretty darn good to me. I also have a Brembo radial MC on my GSX-R with braided lines and OEM calipers with Vesrah RJL pads for comparison.


With that being said I do plan on upgrading the caliper with either a Brembo radial caliper, the Brembo 40mm caliper or a Tokico caliper with a caliper adapter from SVRacing when they finally release it. I have TYGA's & FRANDO's caliper adapters now.
 

Attachments

#25 · (Edited)
Your total caliper piston area is 3,230.9 sqmm = [(22/7 * 30/2) * 2] + [(22/7 * 32/2) * 2]

Your total MC piston area is 176.8 sqmm = (22/7 * 15/2)

So your ratio is 18.3 = 3230.9/176.8

This ratio is too low; your hydraulic ratio isn't generating enough power. Say your grip is 20 lbs at the lever. The lever has a mechanical ratio around 5-6, so your 20 lb pull will be around 150 lbs going into the MC piston. With a 18.3 ratio, the 150 lbs will be 2,741 lbs. This sounds like a lot, but it is low.

Because you are using a single caliper, you need a MC with a piston around 12.7 mm (or 0.5"). With this size MC, the ratio is 3230.9/126.7 = 25.5, With this ratio, your pressure is 150 * 25.5 = 3824.2 (A 39 % increase in power!). Stated another way, you will have to squeeze the 15mm piston MC with 38 lbs of force to equal the same power as a 20 lb pull will generate on the 12.7mm piston MC.

I think there is a 12mm piston MC out there; its ratio is 28.6 with a total pressure of 4283 (a 56.3 % improvement. This sounds good, but the MC might not move enough fluid to lock up the brakes.

I would suggest trying a 12.7mm piston MC. There are lots of options out there used on previous models. Get a cheap one if you are not sure and swap it with your current setup, then bleed the system. Then go ride and check it out. You will be amazed at the difference. Once you are done experimenting, look for another Kawasaki used MC that has the look you want (same as stock ninja 400 ??) with a 12.7 or 0.5 mark on the MC body. ebay is great for this.

Don't get a 14mm or possibly a 13mm piston MC as they are too big.

Good luck and post back what you do.

Jerry
 
#28 · (Edited)
Thanks for the help with this, Jerry - did you register just for lil' ol' me? :)

You have a typo in the calculation above, even though the math is using the right numbers...you have
Your total caliper piston area is 3,230.9 sqmm = [(22/7 * 30/2) * 2] + [(22/7 * 32/2) * 2]
Should be
Your total caliper piston area is 3,230.9 sqmm = [(22/7 * 30/2) * 2] + [(22/7 * 34/2) * 2]
The piston area and resultant ratio are correct for 2x30, 2x34 but the text says 32, just pointing that out in case it trips someone else up.

Does anyone know what the piston diameter is on the stock caliper? I might try the 15mm master if the stock caliper's got 34mm x 4, as that would give me a ratio of ~20.6.


Edit note: wait a sec - why not use a 13mm MC? With the Brembo caliper, the ratio would be 3230.9/132.8 = 24.3
 
#32 · (Edited)
Thanks for the help with this, Jerry - did you register just for lil' ol' me? :)

You have a typo in the calculation above, even though the math is using the right numbers...you have

Should be

The piston area and resultant ratio are correct for 2x30, 2x34 but the text says 32, just pointing that out in case it trips someone else up.

Does anyone know what the piston diameter is on the stock caliper? I might try the 15mm master if the stock caliper's got 34mm x 4, as that would give me a ratio of ~20.6.


Edit note: wait a sec - why not use a 13mm MC? With the Brembo caliper, the ratio would be 3230.9/132.8 = 24.3

Thanks for catching the typo. I did the math in a SS and typed the data over, so it was a typo.

I didn't register for you, I'm sitting on the fence trying to figure out whether to get this bike or the updated R3. I like both. I'm in no hurry as I have 8 bikes now, so I have lots of rides to take out.

The ratio thing works with fixed calipers that only have 2, 4 or 6 moving pistons. It isn't as straight forward with sliding calipers that have 2 pistons. The vintage linkage takes that into account when selecting best ratios. For the sliding calipers, you have to account for the opposite area in the caliper to get the true total area of the "caliper" the MC piston is pushing fluid against. You will see the best ratios are slightly different for sliders vs fixed.

GreenWheenie: I like your generalization that the 400 brakes "...are just fine." Like all aspects to any bike built to a price point, areas can be improved. The 400 brakes are an area that can be improved. The items you cite are the typical items that are done. The list of things do different things to help; so knowing what does what is important to know when working on a budget (I highly recommend all riders do this to keep track of getting too deep in one area when there are more areas needing $'s. You can easily spend a lot of "love" on your ride only to find you could have bought a better ride for the same money in the end. You never get your $'s back when you sell. A budget helps you know what you will spend and what areas you want to improve.) While your tire does play an important role in braking, your rubber is likely to be good enough to handle greater braking inputs. So to improve things, I have found they fall into 2 areas; things that improve feel and ones that increase power (some do both). To improve braking I have found these areas to consider:

To increase power:
1. increase pressure at caliper (this is force measured in lbs); you can change levers to give you a better mechanical leverage ratio and/or you can increase the hydraulic ratio by matching the area of the caliper(s) to MC piston.
2. pad size: if you can reduce the size of the pad area, it increases the force of the pads against the disc (pressure = force/area). A hidden way to increase braking for the track if you can understand what I'm saying.
3. increase coefficient of friction of pads; pressure of the clamping force only works because of the friction between the 2 surfaces. HH pads do this.
4. increase diameter of the disc; this gives greater leverage of the clamping force.

To increase feel,
5. there are SS brake lines
6. sliding calipers switched to fixed calipers. I found through testing that the pistons in fixed calipers don't move to far to clamp the disc; you have more movement with sliding calipers. The mass you are moving is the key. In fixed calipers you are moving small mass (pistons), for sliding calipers it is almost the whole caliper(s). This also lets you pick a bit smaller MC piston for fixed caliper(s) because they don't have to move as much volume of fluid. This explains why you can generate a bit more power with better feel on fixed caliper(s) well matched to MC than sliding calipers to MC.

So you can see how I feel about SS brake lines. There is a lot of press out there on SS brake lines. If you have $$$'s to spend, then they should be part of the mods. But if you only have $'s, then there are other things to put higher on the list. For me, the order is suspension, brakes and comfort. I make sure the bike I buy has enough power, so that is never in the equation for me. Suspension improvements can be pricey, so there usually not a lot of funds left for brakes - so I am stingy on what I'll consider. I also note there is a reason rubber brake lines have lasted to date by the major manufactures. I have a set of these: https://www.amazon.com/IPA-Tools-In...ocphy=9007872&hvtargid=pla-570276514698&psc=1 These really tell you what is improving the braking; SS lines do not change the pressure readings. This tool will show you what is happening in the items on #1 above.

There are other factors, but for this class of bike they will not make as much difference as the items I listed above. That said if you are riding on the track, you spend $$$'s to win so these other factors will be "worth" doing no matter how small the gain because the gains add up.

Watcher05: I would have said the overall braking is a made up of the kind of factors you listed. The hydraulic brake ratio is a directly affected by the MC piston size as it sets the denominator in the equation.

Hope this helps some of you.

Jerry
 
#29 ·
Answering my own question about the stock front caliper - I couldn't get anything in there to measure the pistons directly, so I measured the imprint they left on the pad backing at 30mm x 2. It's a 2-piston caliper (2 pistons one side, 0 pistons on the other), so the total piston area is 1414.3mm. Ratio with a 15mm MC would be 1414.3/176.8 = 8, which should feel like squeezing a brake lever that's welded to the MC with no feel at all, and would probably require ABS to keep from flipping over the front wheel at the slightest pressure.

Unless my calculations are wrong, the stock MC piston should be about 6mm to get a ratio of 25 (1414.3/56.6). What am I missing here?
 
#30 ·
I may be the oddball here, but the caliper and master cylinder on the 400 are just fine. All this bike needs is braided lines, a Braketech rotor and decent pads (Vesrah SRJLs if on the track) EBC HH if on the street. Plenty of lever feel and more than enough power to activate the ABS or lock the front wheel on non -abs.


A large part of your braking is from the TIRE not the brakes themselves. And the 400 has a decent size tire.


Lever feel on this bike is poor due to rubber lines, and crappy rotor.


Also, check that the brake pad retainer spring is in correctly. if its not seated, your lever will be spongy and not engage the pads evenly.


And yes, the BMW S1000RR and R brakes are amazing. even better with Brembo SS rotors on the HP wheels. :)
 
#31 ·
I can deduce that the front master cylinder ratio chart is actually a generalization. Surely the ideal ratio is entirely dependent on many factors including the total mass of bike with rider, brake components, lever ratio, hand strength, tire compound, etc.
 
#33 ·
Well, Ok but all the brakes do is grab the wheel, and are only able to use as much "power" as the tire can handle without slipping. Any more "power" is useless.
Like I said, the OEM master and caliper easily overcome the available tire traction with the available "power".
With braided lines and BT rotor, the feel is just as good as any bike Ive ridden.


Dude, I think you are totally overthinking things. The bike so light, it doesn't take much brake to slow down, and at most of the tracks Ive been on the brake hardly gets used anyway. :/


Look at cars, bigger brakes are generally for heavier cars, and more brakes requires bigger tires. Its a system. You could mount a solid brake that just locks up the tire with a glance. that is not much use.
 
#35 ·
Dude, I think you are totally overthinking things. The bike so light, it doesn't take much brake to slow down, and at most of the tracks Ive been on the brake hardly gets used anyway.
Thats an Amen!!! To go faster, on a track, first off is to use less brakes and more throttle. When that throttle application is good, thats when you need more brakes. Most of us are ways away from that state. Once you get to that state, harder and shorter brake distance is what'll make your lap times fall. In that scenario, better brakes/stopping power will be needed. While releasing the brakes (trail braking), needs a lot of feel, so a good set of pads is better than any MC or caliper change.

On my race bike, I did swap out lines to SS braided ones from HEL, rotor with BrakeTech, pads with Vesrah RJL's (good feel on my R3), and fluid with Motul RBF600 (to be flushed frequently / every race weekend). This setup is good enough to lockup the front wheel and has great stopping power. I really do not think you need to upgrade MC or calipers, unless you have a Superbike built motor with tons more power.
 
#37 ·
As @kiwi_rider mentioned I did go with the Brembo 4 caliper. it was a direct bolt on from my donor Ninja 300, the MC came from a 2004 GSXR 600 also donor from my 300, I ditched the cr*ppy sponge brake lines and went SS. Pads are HH brembos, rotor stock, levers shorty adjustables. I have yet to lock up the front wheel accept when it was wet and yes I did go down. I 2 finger brake all the time, and have had to brake hard to stop from running into idiots that can't handle the turns and stay on their lines.

I didnt go into the science side of it to figure out what and which part to use with this part and that part, all it takes is practice and time on the track to figure out your braking needs. I like to know when I do need my brakes they are there and can do what they are designed to do when needed. The GSXR MS was from a friends bike that he wrecked, it was the right price (free) so I said what the heck lets try it. It works good for me, my rear brakes are stock as I never touch them (I cant power slide like they do in GP :) )
 
#38 · (Edited)
As @kiwi_rider mentioned I did go with the Brembo 4 caliper. it was a direct bolt on from my donor Ninja 300, the MC came from a 2004 GSXR 600 also donor from my 300, I ditched the cr*ppy sponge brake lines and went SS. Pads are HH brembos, rotor stock, levers shorty adjustables. I have yet to lock up the front wheel accept when it was wet and yes I did go down. I 2 finger brake all the time, and have had to brake hard to stop from running into idiots that can't handle the turns and stay on their lines.

I didnt go into the science side of it to figure out what and which part to use with this part and that part, all it takes is practice and time on the track to figure out your braking needs. I like to know when I do need my brakes they are there and can do what they are designed to do when needed. The GSXR MS was from a friends bike that he wrecked, it was the right price (free) so I said what the heck lets try it. It works good for me, my rear brakes are stock as I never touch them (I cant power slide like they do in GP :) )

SDM,

Your MC came from a 2004 GSXR 600 that had dual front calipers and you are now using it to drive a single caliper; its too big. (Edit: I looked up the MC on ebay and can see the MC piston is 3/4". That is slightly more than 19mm (0.748) and you are using it to drive a single caliper! I suspect the brembo has larger pistons than the 2004 GSXR600 but it still is only a single caliper. I posted a pic of the MC I think you are using.) I have measured this kind of setup before so I know your MC is way too big for your single caliper. You might be able to brake with 2 fingers, but you will not have much power with your setup. You may have enough to lock the brakes in the wet with 2 fingers, but I seriously doubt you have enough to lockup the caliper on dry pavement even using your whole hand because your hydraulic ratio is so small.

In the end its your bike, so if you want to ride on that set up, go for it.
 

Attachments

#39 ·
That's odd I figured it would be the opposite, more braking power with the bigger MC. Even better if the front doesn't lock up on me. Already did a head over hills when i had my CBR1000RR. I like the set up and as you said it works for me ?
 
#42 · (Edited)
I need some confirmation on MC size. A check on ebay shows the oem MC piston at 1/2" I will run a few configurations so I want to make sure I am pulling out a good range of MC's to run against brembo and possibly other calipers.

Here is a good pic of the oem MC, the piston is clearly a 1/2"

Here is a pic of the oem caliper, but I cannot find the cast piston sizes - can someone check theirs to see if they can see any numbers?

Edit: The 13-17 300 ninja has 27mm pistons

Edit 2: The 300 uses a 1/2" MC piston too
 

Attachments

#44 · (Edited)
A small update before I go dark trying to finish a few other projects.

I'll test 2 MC (12.7 mm and 5/8") and 2 possibly 3 different fixed calipers (2 NISSIN and 1 BREMBO). I'll make sure the BREMBO is tested with SS and rubber line so you can see the difference SS line makes.

Pic 1. I finished calibrating the caliper tester so I have a good idea what clamping force each configuration yields.
Pic 2. Test configuration; old handlebar with both MCs mounted. I'll swap brake line connections depending on which caliper is tested.
Pic 3. The caliper tester slides in the caliper, then you squeeze the lever and read the gauge. This was a scooter brake project.
Pic 4. This was a test result of the 12.7mm Vespa MC pushing a single NISSIN fixed caliper (I forget which one). You can see this MC/caliper generates tremendous clamping force. I wish I had a 3/4" MC to match up to the BREMBO to show what that combination can produce - it will be far less than the little Vespa MC is generating...

Edit: I found I have 3 different NISSIN calipers: 2 x 32mm and 2 x 30mm pistons; one has 4 x 30mm pistons; and the last one has 2 x 30mm and 2 x 28mm pistons I check the BREMBO to make sure I have a good spread on total caliper piston area.

Maybe in 2 weeks, I'll have the parts cleaned and checked out.
 

Attachments

#47 ·
I'll Bite. You could probably smoke me around a race track. No doubt. I will openly admit you can probably lap me during a track day. No argument. If I want to fiddle with my bike, who cares. Its my bike. Once again, I will absolutely admit you are a better race track rider then me.
 
#49 ·
I’m going to pick up my forks & wheels today (with newly installed cartridges & tires) - once everything is back together, I’m going to try a 12mm radial MC with the Brembo caliper, should give me a caliper-to-master cylinder ratio of 28.6. If that’s too soft, I’ll try the 15mm radial MC (18.3 with Brembo) or maybe 12mm with stock caliper (25). I’m using 30mm as stock caliper piston size in my calculations, but I could be slightly off, as I measured the impressions on the back of The pads.
 
#50 ·
After trying the 12mm MC, try the oem one at 12.7mm. It doesn't look as sexy, but it is free. I know you will like the feel and power.

I do not have a 12mm MC, but if you do it will work better with oem caliper than 12.7 oem MC.

Check all your piston sizes on 1 side as Brembo and NISSIN do have variations where the pistons are same size and for other applications different (like 30 and 34).

Post back your results; I know you probably don't have a caliper tester, so it will be your riding experience you post back.

Somehow I feel we're all going to die... :surprise:
 
#52 · (Edited)
3 tested configurations:

1. 1/2" piston MC pushing through 31yr old rubber brake lines against 2 pot (30mm) sliding caliper (oem set up on 1988 Honda Hawk GT)
2. Just swapped out 4 pot fixed NISSIN caliper (2x30mm + 2x34mm pistons)
3. Same as #2 but swapped out brake line for a SS brake line.


#1 generates about 1,450 lbs of clamping force.
#2 generates about 1,860 lbs of clamping force, a 28% improvement. The movement of the brake lever indicates I could go to a 12mm MC generating more power - or the better way to think of it, I have to use less force to get the same braking performance.
#3 doesn't generate any more clamping force over #2 even though it has the SS brake lines vs 31 year old rubber brake lines.


So, if you are going to spend money, you will get best improvement by making sure your MC and caliper are optimally matched. So, get a fixed caliper on the bike and get best matched MC piston size to the caliper you choose. Then get HH pads. Pass on the SS lines and save the $'s for the suspension because you will need it.
 

Attachments

#53 · (Edited)
Last test configuration; same as #3 earlier but now I use a [bigger than 1/2"] 14mm NISSIN MC.

This configuration generates [only] 1,542 lbs of clamping force. This is with the SS brake line (a rubber line would not have produced a different result). So you can see going with a bigger MC piston reduces clamping force to the point the fixed caliper only generates a bit more than a 2 piston sliding caliper! If I had a MC with a 19mm piston, you would see even a greater drop to the point the 2 pot slider would easily out perform a 19mm MC + SS brake line + 4 pot fixed caliper configuration.

Hope this help guides some of you contemplating some brake changes.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top